Cost to replace serpentine belt - Jul 13, 2020 · When should you replace the serpentine belt? Your serpentine belt was made to last. Under ideal circumstances, your car’s serpentine belt should last 60,000–100,000 miles. It’s important to replace this belt as part of your vehicle’s scheduled maintenance (even if it looks okay) to avoid it breaking while you’re on the road.

 
How much serpentine belt replacement should cost. Prices paid and comments from CostHelper's team of professional journalists and community of users.. Bug in a rug

The average cost for a Hyundai Santa Fe Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $113 and $133. Labor costs are estimated between $49 and $62 while parts are priced between $63 and $70. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed. For a more accurate estimate based on ...The average cost for a Honda CR-V Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $90 and $119. Labor costs are estimated between $39 and $49 while parts are priced between $51 and $70. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed. For a more …How much does a Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement cost? On average, the cost for a Lexus RX350 Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement is $189 with $49 for parts and $140 for labor. Prices may vary depending on your location. Car Service Estimate Shop/Dealer Price; 2014 Lexus RX350 V6-3.5L:The economic case for immigration. Trump’s anti-immigration crusade is taking a toll on the same Rust Belt communities that voted for him. Foreign-born arrivals have been a boost f...Store Details Change Store. Schedule An Appointment. Serpentine Belt Cost & Replacement. The experts at Firestone Complete Auto Care have years of experience …A bench grinder is the ideal tool for all those sharpening jobs, but if you don't own one you might find a belt sander works as well. Watch video. Expert Advice On Improving Your H...Our certified technicians undergo 270 hours of training in an ASE-certified program. We perform a full-service oil change in about 15 minutes, including a FREE 18-point maintenance check*. Most services can be performed without you ever leaving the comfort of your car. We are often able to provide maintenance services at 30% …I haven't noticed any cracks or anything in the belt and it does not squeak. I take my truck on long drives from time to time is what raised the question as I have 2 that are coming up in the next couple of months. If in case I do have to replace, about how much does it cost. I have heard anywhere from $150 to …Service type Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement: Estimate $268.78: Shop/Dealer Price $300.83 - $388.86: 2008 Ford F-250 Super Duty V8-6.4L Turbo Diesel: Service type Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement: Estimate $840.15: Shop/Dealer Price $956.60 - $1294.80: 2000 Ford F-250 Super Duty V8-5.4L: Service type Serpentine/Drive Belt …Van Allen Radiation Belts are zones encircling the earth that have relatively large numbers of high-energy particles. Learn more about Van Allen Radiation Belts. Advertisement Van ...The average cost for a Ford Expedition Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $83 and $102. Labor costs are estimated between $38 and $48 while parts are priced between $45 and $54. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed.The average cost for a Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $143 and $162 but can vary from car to car. A Toyota Tundra Serpentine Belt Replacement costs between $143 and $162 on average. Get a free detailed estimate for a …The average cost for a Dodge Ram 1500 Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $109 and $152. Labor costs are estimated between $52 and $65 while parts are priced between $58 and $87. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed. How much does a Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement cost? On average, the cost for a Honda Civic Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement is $147 with $7 for parts and $140 for labor. Prices may vary depending on your location. The average cost for a Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $86 and $101 but can vary from car to car. A Ford Ranger Serpentine Belt Replacement costs between $86 and $101 on average. Get a free detailed estimate for …There are a lot of great tools out there for your inner MacGyver, but this DIY belt screwdriver doesn’t take up any pocket space and can hide in plain sight. There are a lot of gre...I haven't noticed any cracks or anything in the belt and it does not squeak. I take my truck on long drives from time to time is what raised the question as I have 2 that are coming up in the next couple of months. If in case I do have to replace, about how much does it cost. I have heard anywhere from $150 to …Jul 13, 2020 · When should you replace the serpentine belt? Your serpentine belt was made to last. Under ideal circumstances, your car’s serpentine belt should last 60,000–100,000 miles. It’s important to replace this belt as part of your vehicle’s scheduled maintenance (even if it looks okay) to avoid it breaking while you’re on the road. 3 Mar 2021 ... Accessory Drive Belt Replacement - $1800! Jump to ... cost of replacement due to the decision of ... belt .......replace and reverse for install.In the 987.1 you have to keep tension on the wrench/breaker bar while sliding the belt onto the roller. In the 987.2 you release the tension by 'camming it over", and you can set down the breaker bar and feed the belt onto the roller with both hands, and then apply tension again with the breaker bar. ‘13 Boxster S. How Much Will it Cost to Replace a Serpentine Belt in Canada? Replacing a serpentine belt in Canada usually costs between $100 and $200. This cost includes parts and labour, with the belt itself typically ranging from $25 to $75, and the rest going towards labour expenses. A serpentine belt replacement cost depends on your car model, labor charges, and spare parts price in your locality. Typically, a serpentine belt replacement may cost around $100-$195. This includes both labor charges ($75 …Apr 29, 2022 · The Average Cost to Replace a Serpentine Belt Is $58 to $126 Depending on if You Go to the Mechanic or DIY. This price range is based on national averages for all vehicles and does not factor in taxes, fees, or your particular make and model. Related repairs or maintenance may also be needed. The average cost for a Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $144 and $163 but can vary from car to car. A Ford Fusion Serpentine Belt Replacement costs between $144 and $163 on average. Get a free detailed estimate for a …2 Dec 2010 ... Serpentine belt - belt itself is $20-$30ish at most places (dealer is probably a bit more but I doubt by a lot). Labor shouldn't be more than 45 ...8 Dec 2021 ... ... fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. Recommended products with links may be commission-based when products are purchased from ...The average cost for a Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $92 and $115 but can vary from car to car. A Toyota 4Runner Serpentine Belt Replacement costs between $92 and $115 on average. Get a free detailed estimate for …Most dealers have a minimum rate of 1 hour, although I have seen a few that will break it down to less. The job is far less than an hour, so figure whatever the shop hourly rate is plus cost of the part (which will be higher than you could buy it for elsewhere). My guesstimate would be around $200 - $250. :confuzeld.Feb 19, 2024 · The cost of replacing a serpentine belt ranges from $58 to $250, depending on who does the work. The parts cost typically ranges from $40 to $75, with the remaining cost going to labor charges. The vehicle makes, and models and your geographic location may also impact the price. The average cost for most cars is around $130. How much does a Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement cost? On average, the cost for a Honda Pilot Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement is $182 with $42 for parts and $140 for labor. Prices may vary depending on your location. Car Service Estimate Shop/Dealer Price; 2003 Honda Pilot V6-3.5L:Most dealers have a minimum rate of 1 hour, although I have seen a few that will break it down to less. The job is far less than an hour, so figure whatever the shop hourly rate is plus cost of the part (which will be higher than you could buy it for elsewhere). My guesstimate would be around $200 - $250. :confuzeld.When should you replace the serpentine belt? Your serpentine belt was made to last. Under ideal circumstances, your car’s serpentine belt should last …28 Apr 2022 ... Shop for New Auto Parts at 1AAuto.com http://1aau.to/c/192/bg/serpentine-belts This video shows you how to install a new serpentine belt on ...How much does a Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement cost? On average, the cost for a Subaru Outback Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement is $175 with $35 for parts and $140 for labor. Prices may vary depending on your location. Car Service Estimate Shop/Dealer Price; 2014 Subaru Outback H6-3.6L:Service type Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement: Estimate $207.48: Shop/Dealer Price $224.20 - $266.26: 2014 Volkswagen Golf L4-2.0L Turbo Diesel: Service type Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement: Estimate $205.55: Shop/Dealer Price $222.27 - $268.32: 2002 Volkswagen Golf L4-1.8L Turbo: Service type Serpentine/Drive …Feb 21, 2024 · The average cost to replace the Serpentine belt ranges from $40 to $220 and it depends on the make and model of your vehicle, your mechanic’s pay rate, and where you live. For the new serpentine belt and other needed parts alone, you may pay around $20 to $50 but if they’re hard to access or install then that could boost the price. The average cost for a Hyundai Elantra Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $67 and $87. Labor costs are estimated between $38 and $48 while parts are priced between $29 and $39. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed. The average cost for a Ford Taurus Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $97 and $109. Labor costs are estimated between $43 and $54 while parts are typically priced around $55. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. The average cost for a Chevrolet Trax Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $218 and $266. Labor costs are estimated between $184 and $232 while parts are typically priced around $34. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed. The average cost for a Ford Fusion Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $144 and $163. Labor costs are estimated between $75 and $95 while parts are typically priced around $68. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. The average cost for a Chrysler PT Cruiser Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $126 and $142. Labor costs are estimated between $64 and $80 while parts are typically priced around $62. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed.The average cost for a Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $103 and $117 but can vary from car to car. A Ford F 250 Serpentine Belt Replacement costs between $103 and $117 on average. Get a free detailed estimate for a repair in your area.28 Apr 2022 ... Shop for New Auto Parts at 1AAuto.com http://1aau.to/c/192/bg/serpentine-belts This video shows you how to install a new serpentine belt on ...The average cost for a Jeep Grand Cherokee Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $85 and $96. Labor costs are estimated between $31 and $39 while parts are priced between $54 and $57. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed.The average cost for a Chevrolet HHR Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $116 and $143. Labor costs are estimated between $88 and $111 while parts are priced between $28 and $32. Your location and vehicle may affect the price of Serpentine Belt Replacement .The average cost for a Mazda 3 Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $129 and $145. Labor costs are estimated between $59 and $75 while parts are typically priced around $70. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed. For a more accurate estimate based on your ...I have a 2018 Limited but have not yet had the need to change its belt. I did notice that its adjustment was different from my last Subaru (2004 Impreza) and looks like a spring loaded tensioner. I had a 1990 Ford Taurus V-6 3.8L that used the same system. That belt was really easy to remove, which unfortunately was … The average cost for a Ford F-150 Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $87 and $108. Labor costs are estimated between $40 and $50 while parts are priced between $48 and $58. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. The average cost for a Hyundai Sonata Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $133 and $161. Labor costs are estimated between $61 and $78 while parts are priced between $71 and $83. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Author Zack Norman Car Expert. Posted in Engine 05/01/2023. Serpentine Belt Replacement Cost – Exact Amounts With Examples. Did you know, that a single car is made from over 30,000 components? …Most dealers have a minimum rate of 1 hour, although I have seen a few that will break it down to less. The job is far less than an hour, so figure whatever the shop hourly rate is plus cost of the part (which will be higher than you could buy it for elsewhere). My guesstimate would be around $200 - $250. :confuzeld.The average cost for a Ford F-150 Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $87 and $108. Labor costs are estimated between $40 and $50 while parts are priced between $48 and $58. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed. For a more …Service type Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement: Estimate $321.09: Shop/Dealer Price $366.72 - $499.44: 1993 Volkswagen Jetta L4-2.0L: Service type Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement: Estimate $176.89: Shop/Dealer Price $186.47 - $211.04: 2000 Volkswagen Jetta L4-1.8L Turbo: Service type Serpentine/Drive …Learn what a serpentine belt is, how it works, and why it is important to replace it regularly. Find out the average cost of replacing a serpentine belt and the symptoms of a bad one.The average cost for a Chevrolet Corvette Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $160 and $182. Labor costs are estimated between $58 and $73 while parts are priced between $103 and $110. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed.The average cost for a Nissan Sentra Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $113 and $156. Labor costs are estimated between $79 and $99 while parts are priced between $34 and $57. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed.Replacing a serpentine belt in Canada usually costs between $100 and $200. This cost includes parts and labour, with the belt itself typically ranging from $25 to $75, and the rest going towards labour expenses.The average cost for a Hyundai Elantra Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $67 and $87. Labor costs are estimated between $38 and $48 while parts are priced between $29 and $39. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed.Dec 16, 2022 · Serpentine Belt Replacement Cost . Serpentine belt replacement costs usually run around $100-250, depending on the vehicle – it’ll hurt your wallet a lot less to replace a serpentine belt versus a timing belt. Sadly, similar to timing belts, most auto insurance plans don’t cover serpentine belt replacement costs. How much does a Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement cost? On average, the cost for a Kia Rio Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement is $164 with $24 for parts and $140 for labor. Prices may vary depending on your location. Car Service Estimate Shop/Dealer Price; 2009 Kia Rio L4-1.6L:The average cost for a Lincoln MKX Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $101 and $118. Labor costs are estimated between $63 and $80 while parts are typically priced around $38. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed.How much does a Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement cost? On average, the cost for a Buick Encore Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement is $178 with $38 for parts and $140 for labor. Prices may vary depending on your location. Car Service Estimate Shop/Dealer Price; 2014 Buick Encore L4-1.4L Turbo:2 Dec 2010 ... Serpentine belt - belt itself is $20-$30ish at most places (dealer is probably a bit more but I doubt by a lot). Labor shouldn't be more than 45 ...New serpentine belts cost from $25 to $75. The price for a used belt may range between $10 and $30. To give you a clearer picture, here’s a handy table with the approximate costs. However, it might not be worth it as used serpentine belts may already be worn. You might also find them online. The average cost for a Ford F-150 Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $87 and $108. Labor costs are estimated between $40 and $50 while parts are priced between $48 and $58. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. 3 Mar 2021 ... Accessory Drive Belt Replacement - $1800! Jump to ... cost of replacement due to the decision of ... belt .......replace and reverse for install.Damage and wear to EPDM rubber serpentine belts is only identifiable with a special tool or a smartphone app, both of which measure actual wear on the belt ribs. While modern serpentine belts can run for over 100,000 miles without any visible wear, even as little as a five percent material loss leads to belt slippage and increased …The average cost for a Honda Pilot Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $102 and $123. Labor costs are estimated between $48 and $60 while parts are priced between $55 and $63. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed. For a more accurate estimate based on …GET A QUOTE FOR YOUR CAR. Backed by 12-month, 12.000-mile guarantee. Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement Service. What is a serpentine belt and how does it work? A serpentine belt is a relatively …The average cost for a Buick LaCrosse Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $150 and $200. Labor costs are estimated between $114 and $143 while parts are priced between $37 and $57. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed.3 Jul 2013 ... the belt is extremely easy to change. even if the $175 is including the belt, the cost is crazy. buy a belt on your own and find an indy ...The average cost for a Chevrolet Trax Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $218 and $266. Labor costs are estimated between $184 and $232 while parts are typically priced around $34. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed.Slide the cable off of the terminal and tuck it to the side of the battery. You will not need to disconnect the positive terminal. 3. Locate the serpentine belt. Depending on the engine in your vehicle, the serpentine belt may be located at the front of the engine bay, or it may be along one side. [1]The average cost for a Cadillac CTS Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $117 and $134. Labor costs are estimated between $46 and $58 while parts are priced between $71 and $76. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed.The average cost for a Chevrolet Trax Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $218 and $266. Labor costs are estimated between $184 and $232 while parts are typically priced around $34. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed.Velcro or leather? Lever or prong? We have recommendations. If you’re serious about lifting barbells, sooner or later you’re probably going to want a belt. Belts don’t prevent inju...18 Jul 2015 ... My mechanic says my serpentine belt and tensioner need to be replaced and quoted me $400 for the work. I have a 2004 Pontiac Vibe that might ...How much does a Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement cost? On average, the cost for a Toyota Venza Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement is $177 with $37 for parts and $140 for labor. Prices may vary depending on your location. Car Service Estimate Shop/Dealer Price; 2010 Toyota Venza V6-3.5L:Cost. $51–100. Introduction Automatic belt tensioners, standard in most cars now, make changing a serpentine belt a simple DIY repair. ... Serpentine belt replacement is easy …A failing tensioner pulley can cause the serpentine belt to slip or break, resulting in expensive engine damage. Therefore, if you suspect your car has a bad or failing tensioner …The average cost for a Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $103 and $117 but can vary from car to car. A Ford F 250 Serpentine Belt Replacement costs between $103 and $117 on average. Get a free detailed estimate for a repair in your area.The average cost for a Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $76 and $116 but can vary from car to car. A Mitsubishi Galant Serpentine Belt Replacement costs between $76 and $116 on average. Get a free detailed estimate for a repair in your area.The average cost for a Honda Accord Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $96 and $116. Labor costs are estimated between $47 and $59 while parts are priced between $49 and $57. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed. For a more …The average cost for a Cadillac CTS Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $117 and $134. Labor costs are estimated between $46 and $58 while parts are priced between $71 and $76. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed.25 Jul 2019 ... For the do it yourselfer buying a specialty tool set for 130$ isn't cost effective. You can buy a single long wrench( if you just want to ...17 Nov 2018 ... Serpentine belt replacement cost. If your car has two belts, we recommend replacing both at the same time, because you are saving on labor. It's ...The average cost for a Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $144 and $163 but can vary from car to car. A Ford Fusion Serpentine Belt Replacement costs between $144 and $163 on average. Get a free detailed estimate for a …The average cost for a Honda Accord Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $96 and $116. Labor costs are estimated between $47 and $59 while parts are priced between $49 and $57. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed. For a more …

How much does a Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement cost? On average, the cost for a Subaru Outback Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement is $175 with $35 for parts and $140 for labor. Prices may vary depending on your location. Car Service Estimate Shop/Dealer Price; 2014 Subaru Outback H6-3.6L:. Lemon and lime

cost to replace serpentine belt

The average cost for a Ford F-150 Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $87 and $108. Labor costs are estimated between $40 and $50 while parts are priced between $48 and $58. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed. For a more …Oct 21, 2018 · Rock Auto directed me to a Bando 7PK2150 based on the truck I have on file with them, on clearance for under $5 - but the Bando website you linked directs me to a 7PK2145. How much does a Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement cost? On average, the cost for a Dodge Caravan Serpentine/Drive Belt Replacement is $161 with $21 for parts and $140 for labor. Prices may vary depending on your location. Car Service Estimate Shop/Dealer Price; 1997 Dodge Caravan V6-3.8L:A bench grinder is the ideal tool for all those sharpening jobs, but if you don't own one you might find a belt sander works as well. Watch video. Expert Advice On Improving Your H...The first digit is the amount of ribs the belt has. So if you need a 4 rib belt, the first digit is a 4, if you need a 6, it’s a 6, and so on. And all the digits after the PK are the length of the belt in millimeters. Going back to the example we gave, a 6PK1234 belt will be a six rib belt with a length of 1234mm.I have a 2018 Limited but have not yet had the need to change its belt. I did notice that its adjustment was different from my last Subaru (2004 Impreza) and looks like a spring loaded tensioner. I had a 1990 Ford Taurus V-6 3.8L that used the same system. That belt was really easy to remove, which unfortunately was …The average cost for a Hyundai Accent Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $54 and $77. Labor costs are estimated between $31 and $39 while parts are priced between $23 and $38. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed.The average cost for a Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $102 and $124 but can vary from car to car. A Ford Escape Serpentine Belt Replacement costs between $102 and $124 on average. Get a free detailed estimate for a …The largest 4Runner community in the world. Rock Auto directed me to a Bando 7PK2150 based on the truck I have on file with them, on clearance for under $5 - but the Bando website you linked directs me to a 7PK2145.The average cost for a Honda Odyssey Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $96 and $122. Labor costs are estimated between $46 and $58 while parts are priced between $49 and $64. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed.The average cost for a Toyota Highlander Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $108 and $133. Labor costs are estimated between $67 and $85 while parts are priced between $41 and $48. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed.I was going to replace the serpentine belt also. My question is should I also replace the s-belt tensioner and idler pully as well. I have just over 90k miles or 145k kms. Thanks . ... Cost per mile difference is nearly nothing. Current fleet: 2010 EX-L bought with 112K miles, now has 275K miles,The cost of serpentine belt replacement can also vary based on the type of vehicle you have. Generally, smaller and more common vehicles tend to have lower replacement costs compared to larger or luxury vehicles. On average, the cost can range from $80 to $250 for smaller vehicles, while larger or luxury …The average cost for a Chevrolet HHR Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $116 and $143. Labor costs are estimated between $88 and $111 while parts are priced between $28 and $32. Your location and vehicle may affect the price of Serpentine Belt Replacement .The average cost for a Chrysler PT Cruiser Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $126 and $142. Labor costs are estimated between $64 and $80 while parts are typically priced around $62. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed.The average cost for a Ford F-150 Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $87 and $108. Labor costs are estimated between $40 and $50 while parts are priced between $48 and $58. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed. For a more …The average cost for a Buick Encore Serpentine Belt Replacement is between $139 and $166. Labor costs are estimated between $105 and $132 while parts are typically priced around $34. This range does not include taxes and fees, and does not factor in your unique location. Related repairs may also be needed..

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